3 months ago
Monday, June 1, 2009
Town of Brooklyn Meeting Last Week
I guess the Town of Brooklyn, against the wishes of most of the people attending the meeting last week, has voted to amend its long range plan for lot sizes and voted to make them smaller to make the ABA and Lindenwood development happy. They even had to call police to remove people who disagreed. The vote was 5-0. I thought some of the new people on the town board were more receptive to citizens. Guess not.
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About Me
- Chief Highknocker
- You aren't local until you have at least three generations in the cemetery.
41 comments:
YOU BETTER GET YOUR FACTS BEFORE POSTING ON THIS BLOG WHERE YOU AT THE TOWN MEETING ?I GUESS NOT SO STOP ALL THE ILL FACTS AND POST WHAT REALLY HAPPENED THE TOWN SIDED WITH NO ONE IT CLEANED UP A MESS LEFT BEHIND BY OTHERS IAM PROUD OF THEM KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK TOWN BOARD
Thanks for checking in Lindenwood Development and Kenny G!
Police had to remove people from the meeting ? Well alright! I'm proud of you Green Lake! Make some noise!
I suggest the #1 poster learn to spell, use sentence structure, and learn how to make their point without all caps. But, that would be too much to hope from someone who's purpose is only to insult bloggers with different ideas and opinions.
In fact, I am all for posting opinion based on fact. #1 Anon...where are your facts regarding last night's meeting then? Not here to share, just to lambaste? Good grief.
Does anyone think that Lindenwood will sell 100 homes in this poor economic time? The people that live at the GLC have a right to complain. Good luck to the Town of Brooklyn and their green space ideas.
Chief, please get your facts straight. You could start by attending the meeting rather than relying on hearsay and the Green Lake Reporter.
1. The Town Board did NOT make the Comp Plan’s lot sizes smaller. The Town Board removed lot sizes from the Comp Plan so that an existing ordinance (which allows half-acre lots and was around long before Lindenwood) would be the prevailing document. This was done because the Comp Plan and ordinance mistakenly made two different rules about lot sizes. Lindenwood’s project simply brought that conflict to light. The Comp Plan does not become official until 2010 anyway.
2. The Green Lake Reporter’s facts weren’t even close. The Comp Plan was amended to make NO MENTION of lot sizes. Therefore, the lot size matter now rests on an ordinance that was around long before Lindenwood came to Green Lake. The Green Lake Reporter didn’t bother to report the truth. But I’m sure we won’t see a retraction, like usual.
3. The Comp Plan was not amended to make Lindenwood happy. Both the Town and County approved Lindenwood’s final plat over a month ago. The Town’s decision the other night was made to correct the conflicting lot size rules. How could the Town please Lindenwood by amending the rules AFTER the project was approved?
4. The half-acre subdivision lots allowed in the Town are the same as Green Lake County. This way, the Town and County are consistent.
5. The police did not remove anyone who disagreed. A deputy was simply present because much of the crowd was obnoxious, rude and detrimental to the normal proceedings of the meeting. Not to have a deputy present would have resulted in more severe disturbances from an already immature audience.
I wasn't at the meeting. I'm guessing no one was obnoxious or rude, though, just loud and persistent. Council and Boards don't like loud and persistent, they like the sort of "polite" input that can be easily misinterpreted without much notice and swept under the rug. As soon as residents actually start expressing anger, the ones they are angry at begin exaggerating and playing victim. Boo hoo.
Having a deputy there, without prior altercation, was nothing more than an intimidation tactic that spurred an even more heated environment. Bad call, treating residents like potential nuisances or criminals. Resident don't like that and they shouldn't like that. What'd you expect?
Last poster, thanks for sharing that you weren't actually there. That proves how ignorant you are of the facts.
I was there, along with about 25-30 other residents. It is absolutely true that most of the audience was rude, obnoxious and immature throughout the entire meeting. The local newspaper even had a special article about how rude the audience was. It gave great details on how ridiculous the public acted.
Bottom line … disagreement is OK, but at least grow up about it.
Secondly, the Sheriff’s Deputy did not arrive until AFTER the meeting got out of control. He was not there to intimidate but to make sure order was maintained. He arrived mid-meeting, shortly after Bruce and Sharon Gebhardt made complete fools of themselves by loudly interrupting the Town Board after public comments had been closed, making vague threats, raising their voices, and then storming out in a huff. The Town was right to notify the police as a precautionary measure.
Gee. People are mad. Go figure. Shouldn't have made them mad by ignoring them until they got mad, and then get mad at them for being mad, and now blaming them for being mad. Worn out and childish games.
My kids get mad at me when I get angry with them for breaking rules. Who's fault is it that I'm mad at them? Mine? Who broke the rules?
Before quickly getting law enforcement with guns in their holsters to keep civility in the meeting room, did any official stand up, come clean, and express understanding of where the people were coming from before trying to convince the people they were just being rude and simply didn't understand how the people had it "all wrong"?
People aren't stupid. They know when they are being "greased" to hide an agenda, protect someone's political career, or hide obvious mistakes. But people aren't allowed to defend themselves, call out the manipulation, and demand positive change? Again, people aren't stupid, and if there's trouble, officials have no one to blame but themselves for their poor decisions and spineless mumblings.
"Anonymous said...
Last poster, thanks for sharing that you weren't actually there. That proves how ignorant you are of the facts."
No. It only proves how quick you are to hide your own ignorance and lack of sensibility with childish name calling. Next.
So you think that if Mike Wuest would have stood up and say "I understand your anger and frustration, please quit acting inappropriately at this meeting" that everyone would have settled down and become tranquil? Give me a break. This is a heated topic and tempers are not going to be soothed with empathy. Calling the police was the right thing to do if people were acting out of line. I don't like this lot size BS any more than the ABA folks, but I would not act rudely in a public meeting.
" ... Before quickly getting law enforcement with guns in their holsters to keep civility in the meeting room, did any official stand up, come clean, and express understanding of where the people were coming from? ... "
You obviously weren't there. That's exactly what happened. The Town Board listened politely to the residents, and then calmly explained the various logical reasons for the change. However, the residents acted like 6-year-olds who didn't get the pony they wanted.
I was there to witness it. You weren’t.
Also, the law enforcement was not “quickly” called. The deputy arrived only after the meeting got out of control thanks to Bruce and Sharon Gebhardt, along with their comrades who were hooting and hollering at every turn. I’m proud of our Town leaders for holding their ground against a very immature audience.
I'm getting confused. Who is mad at whom because they were mad?
A handful of citizens and part-time residents from the ABA were mad at the Town Board for amending the Town's Comprehensive Plan. These residents are spreading a false rumor that the Town is only doing this to allow Lindenwood's half-acre lots, but the fact is, the Town already approved Lindenwood's final plat more than a month ago, so such statements are both false and moot. Regardless, these angry citizens acted like raped apes at the last Town meeting because they didn't get their own way.
"Regardless, these angry citizens acted like raped apes at the last Town meeting because they didn't get their own way."
Raped apes? That's an extreme description, but it does happen. If people are so willing to blame bad spending on the "bad economy" or blame unfair priorities on "hands tied by legislature" or blame a few omissions of truth on an "understandable fear of repercussion"...well, can anyone sick of being treated like dirt be blamed for getting loud? Or does society only excuse some people from their bad behavior but want others nailed to wall for theirs?
But I've digressed. I wasn't able to attend the meeting, and am not judging people during circumstances I did not witness. I am not suggesting that "empathy" during an obviously emotional meeting would've solved anything, I am suggesting that complete honesty and understanding may have helped. People don't care anymore about "polite" words used to explain why their voices are not being heard and their quality of life not being considered. I am suggesting that common sense, not political reverberation and regurgitation, take precedent and only THEN when all is out in the clear from both sides decent discussion and civil debate (although angry) can take place.
The major change that citizens are demanding is that the CITIZENS be listened to and their input be heeded much better from those that they elected to represent them. Government has gotten too big and too protected by more government. People are getting very angry and if others had seen this anger coming before it actually erupted, we would have one less thing to sort out. If "government" thought they would ever actually be held accountable, they wouldn't pull some of the stuff that they do (some boldly and some subtly).
Unless it has been witnessed and on record that that Gebhardts officially punched people or pulled guns to threaten public safety before, I sill believe that calling law enforcement was NOT necessary, only aggravated the situation, and only reminded attendees that the "government" will stop at nothing to protect what the government has done, is doing, and wants done. Law enforcement that taxpayers pay for to protect taxpayers being used against taxpayers who are doing nothing more than being loud and insistent about protecting their rights and demanding that they be heard instead of being ignored.
It is not about what officials' think accountability of themselves should be. It is all about the people's idea of what legal accountability they decide to hold the officials to. People are finally starting to speak up and speak out. Good for the people!
I wouldn't want to be on a board or council that has to sit and listen to very angry people direct anger at a board or council. Then again, I was brought up to either know I deserved it when I had done wrong, to earnestly apologize and acknowledge the reasons for their anger and outburst, to have stood by my convictions regardless of what my colleagues were doing, to know the difference between professional and personal attack, or to not have run for a public servant position I was not able to represent in the best interests of all people.
To Anonymous who listed 5 points - mostly stating that the only reason the Comprehensive Plan was changed was to make it comply with the subdivision ordinance and that the change had nothing to do with Lindenwood Development.
There are two problems with your argument.
1) If consistency was the only thing they wanted, the Town just as easily could have CHANGED THE SUBDIVISION ORDINANCE TO MAKE IT REQUIRE 1-2 ACRE LOTS to be in compliance with the Comprehensive Plan. So why didn't they do that? The only reason I can see is that someone wants 1/2 acre lots.
2) You keep saying the Comprehensive Plan doesn't take effect til 2010. If that is true - and I've heard arguments on both sides of this question - then why change it now? The timing is just odd - after the election? before Lindenwood starts trying to sell lots? Why now?
Finally, I am offended that you would use the term "raped apes" to refer to all the women and men of the community - many of whom devoted so much time to creating the Comprehensive Plan - who spoke thoughtfully and with concern at the meeting. Not every speaker was hostile or inappropriate and by using such language you degrade all the fine people who work hard to make our community better.
1. I never said everyone in the community was acting like a raped ape. I said many people at that meeting were acting that way. It’s a fact. I was there. Many of them did not speak “thoughtfully,” but instead acted boorishly and immaturely when they didn’t their way. These grown-ups looked like spoiled children. This is undeniable to anyone who was actually present.
2. It doesn’t make sense to change the ordinance and allow larger lots, because then the ordinance would be in conflict with Green Lake County’s subdivision law. Funny how the opponents never mention that Brooklyn’s subdivision ordinance allowing half-acre lots is the same as the County’s.
3. After 2010, the subdivision ordinance can be changed far more easily than the Comp Plan. After 2010, changing the Comp Plan requires ratification from area municipalities, which would be long and costly. That’s why the change happened now, not later.
4. Furthermore, Town Chairman Mike Wuest has stated publicly that if residents really want larger lot sizes, the Town can still change the ordinance. Remember, lot sizes were REMOVED from the Comp Plan, not reduced in size, so basically the Comp Plan is non-specific on purpose so that the subdivision ordinance is the primary rule, for now. But you can’t just change the ordinance and then retroactively tell Lindenwood “Now we have smaller lots, so you have to change your whole plan.”
5. The Town Board unanimously approved Lindenwood’s final plat over a month ago, so all claims about the Town Board “catering” to Lindenwood by changing the Comp Plan are false. Move on already, people.
To the last blogger -
You seem to know a good deal about local government ordinances and such, and you are obviously very much in favor of the changes made to the Comprehensive Plan by the Town Government. So I'm just curious why you didn't speak at the meeting when the Chair asked for people to speak in favor?
Wow, this discussion really died. There are 200+ posts about the latest nonsense at the school, but less than 20 here. Looks like the Lindenwood haters have run out of arguments. Funny how that happens once the facts are revealed.
It is so typical of people like you to hate on people posting disagreement with local politics and then also hate on them for not posting. Your goals: demean, derail, dismantle, and dictate.
This is why we blog. What would it be without controversy? I don't think it is actually hate, it is more like righteous indignation.
Speaking of hate, have you seen those nasty tent caterpillars dwelling in trees around town? Now these things are truly worthy of being hated. I would like to know why the city (or the town) is making no moves to control this infestation? And for that matter, there is no attempt to control invasive plant species, either. How unfair to us homeowners who struggle to keep these noxious species out of our yards and gardens. The Heidel House woods is overrun with invasive garlic mustard, buckthorn and tent caterpillars. Shouldn't someone be focusing on getting these things under control?
Ha! I knew you all were still reading. You just have nothing more to say because your false accusations about the Town Board and Lindenwood have fallen flat. Apparently, the part-time homeowners from the ABA have run out of arguments after over two years of thumping the “not in my backyard” drum. It’ll be fun to watch their frivolous lawsuit go down in flames, too.
Tell us again about Lindenwood “violating the Comprehensive Plan.” That should be worth a chuckle.
I'm still waiting for a response to that earlier question - Why didn't all the folks on this blog speak at the meeting when the Chair asked for speakers in favor of changing the Comprehensive Plan?
Because nobody freaking cares about this issue except for the part-time NIMBYs from the Conference Center, along with a small handful of actual local citizens (who only spoke up because they have some axe to grind with Lindenwood, not because they truly want larger lots). If lot sizes were really the issue, then why aren’t these people railing against Green Lake County for having the same half-acre standard?
Let’s stop pretending we want larger lots to save the spotted owl and encourage tourism and whatnot. Don’t be fooled. This “controversy” about the Town’s Comprehensive Plan is being pushed by a handful of select people to slander Lindenwood. It’s not working because most folks aren’t buying it.
We don't want to be another Lake Geneva!
To the previous blogger who began "Because nobody freaking cares.."
Whoa! I asked a simple, civil question - If all the folks here feel so strongly about the importance of changing the comprehensive plan, why not speak up at the public meeting? The response you gave was a very angry rant about slander, owls, tourism, etc.
And you still didn't answer the question - "No one freaking cares.." is clearly not the answer. You obviously care - you care a whole lot! No one responds to a simple question with an attack unless they care.
So one more time - Why didn't you speak up at the meeting when the Chair asked for people to speak in favor?
Allow me to rephrase politely … Because a select group of people are trying to make this issue appear bigger and more controversial than it really is. They’ve been peddling a half-truth about Lindenwood “violating” the Comp Plan for over two years. Most of the general public, myself included, really doesn’t care how large or small the lot sizes are in the Brooklyn Comp Plan because new subdivisions come around about once every decade in Brooklyn. If all these “concerned citizens” truly wanted larger lot sizes, they’d be harping on the County too, but they aren’t, because it’s merely a political issue in Brooklyn because of Lindenwood. That’s why a lot of people didn’t speak up. Some of us were simply there to enjoy the show. Next.
Chief, here’s a good fresh topic. This week, the Green Lake City Council discussed donating thousands of dollars in room taxes to the Cornerstone facility (formerly the proposed YMCA). While Cornerstone is a worthy initiative, this proposal is going to get interesting, for two reasons. One, it’s a sticky question about giving tax money to Cornerstone. Two, the city would make this donation by taking room taxes away from the Green Lake Chamber of Commerce. I imagine the Chamber isn’t too thrilled with that. Room taxes have historically been a feisty topic in Green Lake, so this may be worth a fresh post.
Isn't the Cornerstone Project a vision shared by a few communities, that has now become a project in the works? Don't these plans for this work in progress already include commitments from participating communities regarding funding, both initially and continually?
Absolutely not - local municipalities are not required or obligated to give Cornerstone a dime. I am not aware of a single city that has seriously considered doing so yet except Green Lake.
There are several reasons that the Cornerstone project irks me. I am sure it would be a wonderful facility, but this is hardly the time to move forward with a huge, optional (not necessary) and expensive project.
The idea of a wellness center/health club is all fine and dandy, but it is coming across rather beggardly to have this grand idea and hopes that a bunch of rich people will step forward with large contributions to pay for it. It simply does not seem like a realistic plan. I am not sure that this area has what it needs to sustain such an extravagant project. There is a very nice "free" work-out center at the school and it is very much underutilized. Think how many people in this area will want to pay an annual fee to go and exercise. In case you haven't noticed, life as we once knew it is over. These are bad economic times and now everyone needs to be frugal and sensible.
I am the alderperson that suggested we use the additional 2% room tax to focus efforts directly in the community for the next two years to attract tourists to the area along with the Chamber of Commerce events and advertising. Here are a few facts: The Chamber needed money about three years ago to hire an outside consultant. The City added the extra 2% room tax to assist with that effort. They made payments to this consultant over a period of two years. Last year, the council decided to give the Chamber the 2% for another year with the condition we would review the 2% in our 2010 budget process which will begin soon. The Chamber was not given the idea the extra 2% room tax was always going to be theirs for the long term.
We now find ourselves with several local efforts to bring tourists to the area, which is what the room tax was intended for. The Greenways Project(multi-use path), the Downtown Renewal Project, the Green Lake Organization and the Cornerstone Project. All these are good ideas and deserve some attention from the City. Council members are always being asked what is the City doing to help the economic situation and its negative affects. My proposal was just a document to suggest how the City might support some local projects. The Chamber already receives 2 1/2 percent of the first 5% of room tax with the other 2 1/2 percent going to the Park and Recreation Board. The City's general fund does not use the room tax.
The City will receive a $550,000 grant for the multi-use path. However, we must come up with approximately $110,000 in funds to supplement the grant. With help from the Town of Brooklyn (the path is mostly in the Town), money from Park and Recreation, donations and this room tax, we will be able to come up with the money necessary to complete phase one of the multi-use path.
This was just a proposal and will certainly be discussed as we move into the 2010/2011 budget process.
Your comments are certainly helpful. Please call me or your own aldersperson with your suggestions on how to assist these projects and raise the funding needed to go forward within our community.
Thank you, Alerperson Moore, for your helpful input and reach to GL residents on this blog.
Please call alderspersons with your suggestions, and please continue to publicly share ideas and concerns so that other are aware of your concerns and aware that alderperson have also been made aware of your concerns.
Hooray for Ald. Moore! The chamber will have to get with reality. We all need to pull in the same direction. Plus,I thought that was a sharp picture of you in the Ripon Commonwealth.
The city has no business giving tax dollars to Cornerstone. Whether Cornerstone turns out to be a worthy initiative or a flop is irrelevant. It’s a private organization, so all fundraising should be non-public.
Furthermore, by state law, room tax money must be spent on tourism. Cornerstone is not a tourism generator. Even if this proposed multi-million-dollar facility is ever built, how would that encourage local tourism? Are tourists flocking to Oshkosh and Fond du Lac because those communities have YMCAs? Hardly. Visitors don’t come to Green Lake to pay a fee and lift weights or take some silly spin class. They can do that at home.
Please, let’s not hand over thousands of tax dollars to some local “wellness project” just to make the city feel good for supporting it. That’s not the city’s job.
I agree! It hardly seems ethical to use this tax for a pie-in-the-sky dream anyway. There is a very good chance this facility will never be built.
Well said - the ignoramouses should really get a clue about what the room tax is for and what it is not. Our local businesses can not afford to advertise without the pooling of the room tax money to do so. This money was never intended to be used by the City to give to any Tom, Dick or Harry with their hand out looking to only benefit their own cause. The best use of this money is to benefit all of our local businesses via the Chamber - which is the only outlet qualified to do so.
Leave it to the Green Lake newspaper to get the facts wrong, again. The ABA homeowners are not “suing” Lindenwood. They have filed a “petition for writ of certiorari,” meaning they are basically appealing the Town of Brooklyn’s decision to approve the final plat.
This is the same newspaper that has yet to correct its enormous front-page error regarding the Town’s Comprehensive Plan decision. Lot sizes were not reduced in size in the Comprehensive Plan. They were ELIMINATED so that the Town’s existing subdivision ordinance is the rule.
When it really counts, local newspapers are not reliable sources of balanced investigation or accurate facts.
Please be more specific. Aside from the errors mentioned in the GL Reporter, what else is unreliable about local news sources? Be specific.
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