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- Chief Highknocker
- You aren't local until you have at least three generations in the cemetery.
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25 comments:
Chief, Maybe you could call it "Highknockers" and it could be strip club and a casino!
Honestly, the last thing this city needs is more sin and debauchery. I think we should keep the present courthouse, and add onto it if necessary.
we have heard talk of a casino in the immediate area....
If we lowered the crime rate in Green Lake County, we wouldn't need a bigger courthouse. Let's lower the north border a few miles and kick Berlin into the next county. Problem solved.
When is the Green Lake area going to realize it is simply not feasible or economical or intelligent to try renovating an old, worn-down, land-locked building? Where do you see room for expansion? Where would people park if you expand over current parking? PTD cannot build square footage for less money - they've already told the board that.
The County A opposition has been relying on misinformation and hysteria for years. How many times does the county need to be told it CAN afford the project through sales tax only? And how many times are we going to review the space needs, only to realize we need more space than what’s available downtown? Let's put this to rest once and for all and build the courthouse/sheriff's department/jail on A. Then, renovate the present site into something that would actually bring people to Green Lake – like a shopping district – rather than taking up valuable space with government workers, who bring nothing to the downtown.
Hey, if there's any sin and debauchery going on, let's hear what it is!
The notion of building a new courthouse is just as idiotic as say, building a new school. There simply is not a need for it. The present building is structurally sound, and there is quite a bit of extra room to expand if you consider that both Water Street and Gold Street basically only lead to the Courthouse and could be eliminated. As far as parking goes, there is always a parking structure to consider, either below or above ground if necessary.
If the county were to study other Wisconsin cities that have built a new courthouse in hopes of making good use of the old one, they would see that this plan simply is not fiscally responsible. Shopping centers in old courthouses just don't make it. Visions of trendy loft apartments or other such ventures are delusional. Green Lake would be stuck with a historic but useless old building taking up prime downtown space.
Virtually any study of cities in Wisconsin would confirm that building on the outskirts of town pretty much kills the downtown shopping district. Our downtown is already dying, and deserting the present courthouse would be the end of Green Lake as we know it. I think it makes much more sense to renovate and expand than to build a new courthouse.
The idea that the downtown will die if we abandon the courthouse is absolutely backwards.
Yes, Green Lake is dying. And we have prime real estate downtown - which could be used for something useful and productive - that is being sat on by the government, which contributes nothing but wasted space and parking. It's not like the employees all go out and shop on their lunch hour. At the most, a handful eat at the Little Corporal. Who cares? That's not helping Green Lake stay alive.
Moving the courthouse OUT of Green Lake would be the best thing for us because it would provide an opportunity to turn that area into something that would draw people here. Tear down the jail. Then, the actual courthouse could become a shopping district, museum, youth center, retirement home, high-end apartments or a variety of ideas. This has a much better chance of getting people to Green Lake than a government building. All it brings now are the criminals and misfits who are there for hearings and to pay fines. Yet in the face of this, the County A opposition has done nothing but cry "property taxes!" and cite their so-called "studies" from other areas.
As for parking ... A parking structure would bring an ENORMOUS cost, especially if it's below ground. Potter Lawson has estimated it in the millions of dollars. Even if a parking structure were above ground, where in the world would you put it? And then where would you have room to expand the actual building? And why would we consider closing city streets in an area that's already congested, especially during festivals?
This county has already spent more than $200,000 on wasted space-needs studies. THAT part is coming from property taxes. But mark my word, should the new Location Committee recommend County A, the opposition will cry foul and demand a new committee - which will waste more time and money.
Again I say, misinformation and hysteria have prolonged this issue for 10 years. Let's end it once and for all ... by looking to the future and building on County A.
By the way, if there were no need for a new courthouse, this issue would not have lasted 10 years and counting. Every time the county is presented with facts that detail the need for new facilities, the studies are rejected because no one wants to accept the truth.
Supervisor Sue McConnell said it best at the last board meeting: "It gets to the point where we're just being stubborn and not looking at the reality of the situation."
I have lived here for years and never seen downtown Green Lake congested. Even after a parade or festival there is no problem leaving the dowtown area. However, there is a severe lack of public parking which could be alleviated by a decent sized parking structure. I think closing Water street is a fantastic idea. There would be enough space to build or expand, and there could be lovely offices overlooking the outlet. It would still cost less money than building an entirely new building on Highway A.
Having the courthouse downtown brings people downtown, period. I go there to pay my taxes, visit the UW Extension office etc. as do many others. If the courthouse was on Highway A, those people would have no reason to even come into the city. I admit that most of the "shopping" in Green Lake is tourist related, but the reasons that downtown is dying has nothing to do with the courthouse.
As far as keeping the criminals and misfits out of Green Lake, they would still be at large in their yellow vests wandering the city without supervision. (what a joke). If you want to get rid of the misfits, then tear down the damn apartment buildings in town and build your trendy stores and high end condos in their place.
Who, precisely, do you think will buy the old courthouse and stick millions of dollars into it to make a youth center or retirement home?
It seems GL resident has a vested interest in building the courthouse on Highway A.
Actually, fixing up the tired, worn-down, land-locked buildings would not cost less than County A. That's the whole problem.
Potter Lawson - a professional architectural firm that knows more about this topic than a bunch of Green Lake people with "opinions" - has determined that renovating the downtown site to meet the county's needs would cost between $20 and $30.6 million. Of course, the high estimate includes an underground parking structure since there'll be nowhere else to park once we build over the north-side lot. According to Potter Lawson, we could spend only $20 million downtown, but that would eliminate most parking and force us to hire extra jail personnel due to the design that comes with spending only $20 million. Remember, personnel costs come from property taxes, unlike the construction project itself, and they never go away. In fact they increase. And this $20 million downtown plan would still leave us with a worn-down, land-locked building. The only difference is, it would have another ugly addition that clutters up that block even more, just like the jail that was built in 1985, and there would be nowhere to park for "Sense and Sensibility" when he goes to pay his taxes.
So what's left? Doing a half-assed job downtown just so we can say we "fixed it" when we really didn't? Do we want this problem to resurface again within our lifetimes? Pretending like we can salvage the downtown site by building a huge parking structure and eliminating two city streets is a foolish approach. Why? Because there's ample space available just outside of town for a comparable price.
One of the problems with the courthouse debate is, anytime a professional disagrees with someone's "opinion," that professional is branded as biased and wrong. And look: "Sense and Sensibility" is doing the same thing. I've lived in Green Lake for 51 years, and just because I say the evidence and reason points toward new facilities, this person automatically brands me as having a "vested interest" in County A. I see this same mentality over and over with this issue.
When Potter Lawson gave its cost estimates, the County A opposition shouted, "No, they're wrong!" with no proof. When the Samuels Group affirmed those cost estimates, the County A opposition shouted, "No, they're wrong" with no proof. When Robert W. Baird said we can spend $32 million on a project using only sales tax and still have a surplus, the County A opposition shouted, "No, they're wrong!" with no proof. Apparently, every hired professional is wrong unless they agree with those who want to stay downtown. And guess what? That hasn't happened because it doesn't make sense for the future. Even the beloved PDT has told the board they cannot build square footage for less money. Big help they are.
How many times have we heard "Bring in an ubiased architect." We've had FOUR. And we've spent over $200,000 in the process. And we've wasted 10 years thanks to the hysteria and misinformation spread by the County A opposition. But yet, those four architects have all been "wrong and biased" just because a bunch of Green Lake people have their own opinions about what the county needs.
Going to the courthouse on personal business from time to time does nothing for Green Lake because we're still not drawing in people from the outside, other than the misfits and criminals. Yes, locals go downtown due to the courthouse, but who else does? Everyone complains about Green Lake's future. Few realize that this is our opportunity to SAVE the city by making that property something of value and attraction - if the county would ever get out of the way.
Who will buy it? The sensible approach would be for the county to give it to a developer. This has been discuseed. That way, it would go back on the city and county tax rolls. Let's not forget, a developer was interested in it two years ago, but the county foolishly rejected building new facilities and selling the downtown ones. We could have had this whole mess over and done with.
Instead, the circus continues.
After seeing what developers have done in GL in the last five years, I have zero confidence that the courthouse could morph into anything positive.
Shops and restaurants downtown will tell you that the courthouse does bring in business.
If the courthouse goes, so will the post office. Downtown traffic will dwindle even further.
But, if we decide to do this and we are going to have all this change, we better have a plan in place first, one that we are largely agreed on, and one that addresses the many consesquences.
There are so many problems with all of this, and the pace of change is so rapid, plus the economy is soft. It is no wonder that this is a fractious issue seemingly without resolution. Maybe we just need to wait.
Or maybe we need to address the fundamentals of development BEFORE we make such a major change to our community. County government is making some effort tto properly vet development proposals, the city not at all. And let's not be glib about what this is going to cost.
The courthouse should leave the downtown area, it contributes nothing other than some historic value and a quaint image.
Find a developer who will agree to work with a local group in refitting the building into retail space on the street level and office space/condo's on the top level.
Rather than donate the building for $1 to the new developer, sell it for something closer to it's real market value and setup a development fund with the proceedings. Create a development commitee from people with a vested interest in seeing the downtown prosper. The commitee should then work proactively to cherry-pick tenants for the new retail spaces - establishing a desirable mix of retail businesses to compliment those we already have.
Cap all rents at a realistic figure for a period of 5 years - perhaps $300 month, with the shortfall covered by the development fund. Create an optimistic "business plan" for the development (a prospectus)and use the document as a marketing tool to attract professional tenants to the new retail spaces. Be very selective about who we allow into the spaces. Basic financial and business background checks will ensure that the new tennants will have sufficient capital to sustain their businesses through the first 2/3 lean years that most businesses experience. We cannot afford another high-turnover situation as we're seeing in other businesses.
They'll also need some incentive, beyond immediate financial, to move into Green Lake - they'll need to feel that they're part of the plan for the future, investing into what will soon be premium retail space (as tennants).
Use money from the development fund for business training, marketing and basically growing tourism and local traffic into the area. This is an essential element to the plan, otherwise we'll have even more business trying to feed from the same tourist dollar.
In 5 years, if properly implemented and managed, you'll have a small but thriving addition to the downtown that will reshape the whole business community.
db
Who was the Einstein two posts above who wrote: "Shops and restaurants downtown will tell you that the courthouse does bring in business ... If the courthouse goes, so will the post office."
Yes, all those criminals, police officers and county workers sure help in patronizing our shops and restaurants every day! And if one or two locals didn't stop by the courthouse now and then, we surely wouldn't have a post office in town!
The reality is, the courthouse only brings in a select number/type of people who are there for courthouse business, not shopping and eating business. They go to the courthouse, then they go home. It's not like some defendant or lawyer says, "Well, now that I'm here in Green Lake for my hearing, I think I'll stop at Two Chez or maybe buy some worms at North Bay."
This anonymous person also suggested the county needs to wait on this issue. It's been a decade! The people opposed to building on A are often heard saying "We just need to wait" or "I think more study needs to be done." That's because as long as the county is just waiting or studying, it's not building anything new, which is exactly what these people want. It's a delay tactic.
In spite of this, we've had STUDY AFTER STUDY that points toward having new facilities because there's simply not enough space or sense in staying downtown. But don't try telling the Highway A opposition that. They'll just say "We need to wait" or "The downtown will die," when both are lame excuses with thin backing.
Few cities have courthouses, yet Green Lake seems to think it needs its to stay alive. Baloney. All that thing does is attract the wrong type of people to town (lawyers, criminals, government workers) who take up our parking without spending a dime while they're here. I agree it should be given/sold to a developer who can turn it into something of value that would bring people to town - the RIGHT kind of people, like tourists. Don't try to tell me the tourists come here to see the courthouse.
I believe developers would jump at the chance to renovate a historic building on a piece of prime real estate. That's what has happened all over in Ripon. Case in point - the old elementary school near the American Legion post that is now Central Park Apartments. It was gutted and turned into condos for seniors - people who have money and therefore go around Ripon spending it. It worked there, and it can work in Green Lake.
Tyler P.
It's a very creative idea to sell the courthouse and set up a downtown development fund. But doesn't the county own the building? How would we persuade them to give the money to a city project?
Also, subsidized rents and business plans ARE essential to get things moving, but how do we be fair to the others downtown who do not have subsidized rents? Some of them are being strangled by rent. Or could the fund potentially be open to existing businesses?
These comments aren't argumentative, just interested in taking your idea to another level.
And, to Tyler, I stand by what I said about the courthouse bringing traffic. Having worked for 25 years with downtown businesses, I've heard what they have to say about it. We don't have to keep the courthouse downtown just to have the traffic, but we do need to be aware of what we are losing if it goes, so that we can address that issue properly.
Einstein
I think other businesses will benefit indirectly from the draw created by a successful retail center in the 'new' courthouse. I don't know how you can distribute money from the development fund to existing business owners fairly. If they complain, I would appease them by pointing out the plan is designed to bring many new shoppers downtown. As for the City/County issue, it's something that needs to be worked out, it's in everyone's interest so there must be a viable solution.
Incidentally, I'm in the camp that believes that courthouse traffic contributes very little to local businesses. However, there is the intangible benefit that comes from it being a small hub of activity - giving the town an added feel of vibrancy. If you take that away without replacing it, the town becomes even quieter, which in turn will compound the problems that we have. So I believe an empty courthouse would be a disaster for downtown.
It's the same with the realtors - Henry Conti wants to band them all together and put them up in the old Fabrico building - supposedly that will free-up space for retail - but all that will happen (without a plan) is that the buildings will sit empty downtown and fewer people will be on the streets.....all of this needs to be handled very carefully, it's a complex issue that could make things worse if it isn't approached properly.
db
If any of you haven't noticed Princeton and Ripon are trying to turn into the next Cedarburg. But if Green lake got into the picture we could blow them away. The downtown courthouse needs to be closed and turned into a tourist shopping district. It takes up valuable downtown space. Every time that Green Lake holds an event there are hundreds of people who show up and walk around looking for something to do or buy. There is nothing to do downtown and the businesses that are there now seem like they are not interested in selling anything worth while. I would love to patronize these businesses but they don't have anything to offer. Let the government do it's thing out side of town and let Green Lake become what it is suppose to be since the 1800's a resort town with lots of things for tourists. If you build it they will come.
You have to admit, there are some very compelling arguments here for a new courthouse.
In the past several years, I've noticed something about this issue: The people who want to build a new courthouse usually cite facts and numbers, along with information from the hired firms (Robert W. Baird saying the sales tax will cover even the $32 million County A option). Whereas the people who want to stay downtown tend to rely on their feelings and opinions ("But I like the courthouse where it is" etc.)
If it's going to cost us between $20 and $30.6 million to renovate the downtown into something worthwhile (according to Potter Lawson), it's just not worth it, especially if the lesser amount is going to dramatically reduce the already limited parking and require more jail staff. Let's not pour good money after bad by trying to salvage something that's not worth salvaging.
if you build it with a brain and a plan then they MAY come. Green Lake made a MAJOR mistake 12 years ago when some astute successful retailers had a vision for major retail in Green Lake and the Chamber shut it down. Without going into any details, it was a prime example of Green Lake shooting themselves in the foot. A suggestion. Mix with successsful retailers in the area and perhaps listen to them????
All you have to do is review the cost comparisons from Potter Lawson to realize that building on A is the only sensible option.
Ten years ago the co. board asked the various co. departments for what they wanted in terms of space in a building, gave them what they asked for, and presented the plan to the people, some of whom have been objecting ever since. It is just this summer, ten years later, that the board is starting to scale back the requests for space, which is standard practice.
If I headed a department, I would have asked for the moon also, hoping to get half of that. It was up to the board to scale back those requests.
When the plan makes sense, people will back it.
I love the way these know-nothing Green Lake people accuse the department heads of "asking for the moon." The reality is, the public does not know the first thing about space needs. Yet the county is constantly accused of asking for too much just because some Green Lake people THINK that's the case (not because they actually have any proof or facts). We just reviewed the space needs AGAIN, and the end result was within 9,000 square feet of what Potter Lawson had been saying we need all along.
I suppose this space needs review was wrong, too? Just like the four previous architects have all been wrong?
FYI ... I read in the Ripon paper the "Location Committee" will meet on Friday at 4:30 PM at the courthouse. Might want to go to this one. It's going to be a real zoo.
Is nothing exciting going on in GL or is CHief too busy to bring us gossip????
*Curious*
Yeah, where are you Chief? Things are a little slow in town but we have faith in you to bring us something!!
Big Chief heap busy mixing fire-water for wampum! Send smoke signals to white man spirit box soon, Chief! Settlers getting restless...
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